David Starr wants people to ‘wake up’ about WWE layoffs and join the fight for unionization

David Starr recently spoke exclusively to Daily DDT about the “inexcusable” layoffs by WWE, and how fans and other wrestlers can fight for unionization.

Disclaimer: The following interview was conducted and published prior to rape and sexual abuse allegations against David Starr that started the Speaking Out movement. We thoroughly condemn Starr’s actions and support the courageous victims who have come forward to reveal these abusers.

When it comes to labor rights, professional wrestling isn’t exactly on the forefront of protecting their workers. WWE is one of the biggest offenders, and that was one of the many things discussed when I recently spoke to David Starr about his ongoing fight for unionization and his reaction to the most recent series of layoffs by wrestling’s biggest corporate entity.

At just 29 years old with 8 years of in-ring experience, David Starr has already amassed an impressive wrestling resume that includes work with CZW, TNA, Ring of Honor, wXw, RevPro Wrestling, Progress Wrestling, OTT, various other independent promotions, and even a WWE tryout back in 2014 alongside current WWE stars like Roderick Strong and Kevin Owens.

However, it’s not generally his resume or his in-ring prowess that people think about when they bring up David Starr. Usually, David Starr calls to mind his vocal support of unionization, his fight for protecting the labor rights of wrestlers, and the effects those choices have had on him and his career.

“This last year, I kind of made the conscious decision that I was gonna have to put certain principles that I hold above my own financial interests,” Starr said. “Somebody’s gotta be the person to step up and do it. It’s obviously been a topic of conversation in the wrestling community for decades, and the reason why no one wants to talk about it publicly is there’s always this idea that the wrestling business should stay within the wrestling business. The only thing that’s really gotten out has been the creative aspect of it, but we don’t talk about the predatory aspect of the rest of the business.”

“I think that is one of the things that protects these people that prey on young talent and even talent that are signed to contracts. [They] don’t talk about that because everyone wants to get their payday,” Starr said. “The idea of being silent publicly about these things has only seemed to serve those predators. It’s just one of those things where I’m gonna take a different approach to this, and the approach we took was to be very vocal and very public about the whole thing.”

Their first big victory in unionization

One of the biggest victories in that fight so far has been Equity UK forming a partnership last year with Eve – Riot Grrrls of Wrestling. It was the first agreement of its kind between a wrestling promotion and a union, and David Starr discussed the potential for that spreading to Equity US or other American unions.

“We’re in the earliest of early stages of talking to Equity US. When I say earliest of early stages, that means we’ve reached out. We’ve heard from some people who work for Equity in the US. I’ve talked to them through email and DMs and stuff like that, but not anybody who’s in a position of power to make any decisions,” Starr said. “The biggest difference between Equity in the US versus Equity in the UK is, obviously, Equity in the US involves healthcare. So I think there’s a certain threshold amount of money that you’d have to make through your entertainment trade in order to qualify for Equity’s healthcare plan, but that would still be fantastic. That would be fantastic.”

As David Starr continued, he talked about the potential for other entertainment unions in the United States partnering with professional wrestling, and the hurdles that currently exist in that fight.

“Based on the conversations that I’ve had, there’s a lot of entertainment unions in the US that would be interested in encompassing professional wrestling, but I think for the most part when you get to these big stages they’re very focused on the big stages. They’re very focused on TV work, where what we have control of is independent wrestlers, freelance wrestlers, and people like that,” he said.

“So obviously we’re in a much more difficult position. It’s just how the gig economy works these days. We’re not really with the same people. We’re working with a bunch of different people all the time, and that’s why public voice such as Twitter and Instagram and stuff like that is extremely important to this movement. It is just very, very, very important to keep a unified front on here, and hopefully something breaks through in the US,” Starr continued. “We are trying it. We’re trying our best to reach out to places and make things work, but hopefully they do see ‘hey, this can happen, they’re doing it [in the UK], why can’t we do it here?’”

The unfortunate consequences of speaking out

It’s an important fight, and David Starr isn’t backing down despite the impact it’s had on him. While discussing what fans can do to support wrestlers fighting for unionization, he touched on how his career has been affected.

“The way that fans can do it is by being vocally supportive of anybody who speaks in favor of these sorts of things. [Speaking out], it’s scary. I had a bit when I had my spat with Gabe [Sapolsky] recently about him not paying Evolve workers. I knew that no wrestler could really come out and support me, because they can’t. Because it’s dangerous. If they came out and supported me, they might get blackballed from WWE. So they can’t. So it’s dangerous.”

“Another reason why we’re taking this public message is because we want to make sure that the fans have a voice in this, because the fans having our back gives us a little bit more courage,” Starr said. “It ensures that we can’t be blackballed. If you support independent wrestling, no wrestler can get blackballed [for speaking out]. That’s really how it goes.”

There had been reporting in the past about the specific effects that David Starr had felt from his fight for unionization, including WWE reportedly pressuring independent promotions not to book him. I asked David Starr point blank who all had blackballed him and how those actions were affecting his career.

“Well, I know for a fact that there’s two that I’ve been very public about my feelings [towards], which would be Ring of Honor and WWE, and there’s other things with this WWE blackballing thing that are factors. As far as the reach that they have that they’ve imposed on me,” Starr continued. “WWE and Ring of Honor are two of them, and I also know that there’s another company that is basically split on whether or not they would want to bring me in because of my political outspokenness. And that’s okay. The thing about this is that is a consequence. Freedom of speech does not mean freedom of consequences, and that’s one of them.”

“I know there are independent promotions that don’t book me now because they don’t want their talent to talk to me,” Starr said. “That’s something that’s come about from recent car rides I’ve had with guys who were like ‘yeah, we’re not supposed to talk to you about this stuff and we’re not supposed to wear your merch at shows. Like, we’re not supposed to wear We The Independent stuff anywhere.’ So there are carnie promoters that don’t wanna have any of this sorta stuff said because they don’t want their talent to fight back.”

How can wrestling media better support the fight

As someone who covers professional wrestling and sees others do the same thing, I also took a moment to ask David Starr what wrestling media specifically could be doing to better support wrestlers in the fight for unionization and labor rights.

“I think they should ask more questions about the business of the business. That’s the thing I’ve said so many times. The sexy topic isn’t the business of the business. It’s all about backstage gossip or creative differences or what slut-shaming joke Triple H tried to make today. Which I think is relevant, but we don’t ask the right questions,” he said.

“I genuinely don’t care about the booking decisions that are gonna be happening or who’s gonna be a surprise pick in the Rumble. If anything, actually keep that to yourself,” Starr emphasized. “Why spoil one of the cool things about wrestling these days? Just let yourself be surprised. We don’t see reporters going out there hounding The Avengers for what the twist in the movie is gonna be. They didn’t ask George R.R. Martin how [Game of Thrones] is gonna end. Who cares?”

I talked to David Starr more than once in the past few months, and our earlier discussions touched on the ongoing democratic primary in the United States, his experience with universal healthcare in the UK, and the effects capitalism and billionaires have on the general public. As important as those topics were, they got eclipsed by the spread of COVID-19 and the ways the wrestling industry has responded to the global pandemic.

The ‘inexcusable’ layoffs by WWE

Things got much less hypothetical when WWE callously and needlessly fired multiple WWE superstars, referees, backstage agents, and writers on April 15. I talked to David Starr again just days after WWE took these actions about what he’s heard from others in the industry, and exactly why the actions of WWE were so reprehensible.

“I’ve been talking to a few of my friends that work there, a few of my friends that don’t work there, a few of my friends that used to work there, every single person involved in wrestling that I’ve been speaking to obviously has an opinion on WWE or has some experience with them, and it’s not like this is new. That’s the thing,” Starr said. “Overall, it’s just not okay. I keep getting lost so much in thinking about how bad pro wrestling is as an industry and how it’s just getting worse and worse regarding labor relations.”

“The people that are still there are dealing with, what they say, they’re dealing with survivor’s guilt. Everybody there just seems really sad. They seem sad. They’re not angry, they’re sad. Everyone is just really sad, and they’re also nervous. Everyone is nervous. Nobody knows when it’s over. Nobody knows if it’s done.” Starr said before touching on a public interaction he had on Twitter with WWE superstar Seth Rollins.

“I think that Rollins, who I don’t know personally, I’ve never met him before, I think Rollins is genuinely sad. I think his sadness and all of that is sincere. I don’t think that’s just nonsense, but I also think he has the perspective of [someone who has] been personally taken care of. He’s in a great position,” Starr said.

“I don’t think he’s a bad guy. I don’t know him personally, but from all accounts he’s not a bad guy and he’s well liked amongst individuals and stuff. Obviously, it goes without saying that he’s a tremendous performer all around,” he said. “The sentiment that Rollins was displaying of sadness and stuff, like I said I think was sincere, but it would be nice if there was some acknowledgement of who’s responsible for creating that sadness.”

The responsibility and difficulty of others joining the fight

Before continuing to discuss what he hoped WWE talent would do to support unionization, David Starr made sure to point out how difficult that decision is for these wrestlers.

“It’s hard to say you’re disappointed they don’t come out and publicly speak out in favor of their peers and workers. That would be huge, and it’s really easy to say that, but again we have to take into account the difficulty of taking that first step,”  he said.

“That is a huge sacrifice, especially now. Honestly, even more so now, because nobody knows what the indies are gonna look like on the other side of this. So the idea of your job security is pushed even further because you don’t know if you get cut that you have the option to go to the indies and make a ton of money,” Starr said. “It’d be nice if people came out and stepped up publicly. It would be nice if people were organizing privately, which all accounts isn’t happening. It hasn’t been happening from what I’ve been told.”

As we continued to discuss the ripple effects, I asked Starr what responsibility top stars like Seth Rollins and others with safer positions in WWE had to speak out and step forward in the fight for unionization.

“I think that if you’re gonna be a leader, it’s just my opinion, leadership isn’t defending your bosses. It isn’t defending the powerful. Leadership is defending the weak. They should be making sure that every single person is taken care of as opposed to making sure that the boss is happy with you being on top,” Starr said. “It’s just a really difficult thing to do, and having to really come to terms with the fact that it isn’t as easy as just ‘okay, let’s do it.’ Who knows if people are out there publicly defending the company but behind the scenes are saying different things that are getting people together. I don’t know if that’s happening. I hope it is.”

“From talking to people about what they can do, how there can be organization happening, it’s a long process, and I think a lot of people are almost like waiting for permission. That’s the big thing that I’ve been kind of getting,” Starr continued. “I’ve really come to terms with this. We need to stop this mentality as if the company needs to allow us to organize, or the top guys need to allow us to organize. No. We can just do it. We don’t need permission. Workers and labor in general always has and always will have and does have right now the leverage. Always. Labor always has the leverage, and labor always has the power. We just need to recognize that as workers and wield it.”

The ripple effects, big and small, of fighting for change

While top tier talent are in safer positions, there are also so many in WWE who aren’t in that kind of situation. There are talents who may worry that the least bit of talk about unionization could put their job at risk and make them next in line when WWE eventually fires more wrestlers. David Starr talked about what those wrestlers in more vulnerable positions can do to fight for unionization and improve the situation for themselves and their peers.

“It’s a slow process. Get your small group of people, commiserate with your people, then those people commiserate with their people, and they commiserate with their people, and then all of a sudden there becomes this kind of collective group of people. Wrestlers love to complain about wrestling, and wrestlers love to complain about their bosses. We do. We love to complain about wrestling. We love to complain about promoters,” Starr said. “Promoters are very good at [giving wrestlers things to complain about]. Especially corporate promoters. They’re very good at it, but they’re also very good at giving you just enough to not complain, to not hate it, to not leave.”

While David Starr acknowledged the very real risks that superstars in more precarious positions faced, he also went on to point out the power that they still have despite their positioning in the company.

“I think a lot of wrestlers are very, very concerned about their legacy and how they’re going to be remembered as a performer,” Starr began. “If you wanna leave a legacy, if you’re worried about improving the business, well then if you do something and you did get fired for trying to organize, you’re going to be a martyr and your legacy will live on.”

“Jesse Ventura is famous for trying to organize wrestling after one speech, and just getting turned down. That is still a popular thing, and Hulk Hogan is still seen as this scab bootlicker for doing it. That one story by itself has immortalized someone like Jesse Ventura,” Starr said. “I think you should encourage everybody to speak out, because if you’re just a mid-card dude or whatever, you have the opportunity to create a legacy that is gonna last forever. Which you’re way more likely to do than within the subjective nature of professional wrestling.”

As we talked more about the layoffs by WWE, David Starr made sure to re-emphasize just how unnecessary they were and why the company’s fiscal situation didn’t justify these actions.

“[Brandon Thurston of Wrestlenomics] estimated WWE would still report record-setting profits in 2020 even if they had no live events,” Starr said. “WWE didn’t need to create these problems. Literally the only [wrestling] company that’s made these moves is the wealthiest most well-known entity, and that entity didn’t have to do it. They didn’t have to do this. Based on $500 million in cash reserves and the projected $121 million in profits they were gonna see, that means they’re sitting on like $620 million that they have just in case. They didn’t have to do that.”

“It’s just inexcusable. It’s just inexcusable. That’s the thing about it. It is just inexcusable,” he continued. “All of these things happen when labor doesn’t have a seat at the table, and that’s the problem. All of these decisions get made unilaterally and they always just so happen to get made against the best interests of the workforce.”

How to fight against WWE but still support the wrestlers

While we’d talked briefly in earlier conversations about what fans could do to support unionization, things came even more into focus due to the layoffs by WWE. David Starr talked about how fans can resist against the company while still supporting the wrestlers.

“Pirate the [WWE] Network. Cancel your subscription. As a consumer, use your consumer power which is money. If you want to protest against WWE, don’t give them your money. Pirate their product. I’ll say that, I don’t give a s***,” Starr said, stating it one more time to drive things home. “Pirate their product, because the fact is their workers aren’t getting royalties off of their product. They’re getting paid salaries, and yeah they get an offensively abysmal rate of profit split from their WWE merchandise.”

“If you wanna support unionization and you wanna show that, then publicly support it. Tell these wrestlers that you have their back whether publicly or privately or however you can. Go to their merchandise stores that they’ve personally endorsed. Check out Pro Wrestling Tees and see if they have on there, because they get more of that money, significantly more, than the WWE Shop stores. [For WWE merchandise, they get] less than 5%,” he said before touching on a recent podcast with former WWE superstar Ryback. “When I talked to Ryback, he said that he would sign autographs at meet and greets that were selling for like $20 a picture, and he would make 83 cents for every picture.”

The mixed response by AEW and Impact Wrestling

While WWE was definitely an important thing to discuss considering their recent actions, they aren’t the only wrestling company dealing with the current global pandemic. David Starr also talked about the response by AEW and Impact Wrestling.

“They should stop filming entirely. The fact they are filming is bad. It’s the wrong move. It’s not cool. I think it’s a bad move. Period. And I think it’s actually quite inexcusable, but on the same note, they are doing it better than WWE is doing it,” Starr said. “They should be criticized for running shows, but also the way they’re running shows is better than the way WWE is running shows, because they’re paying guys more. I know AEW is offering to house people in quarantine. AEW is offering to do it, to take care of that, and they are saying it’s voluntary, but I don’t buy into that at all. AEW is also not flying anybody right now. No one’s being asked to fly, it’s all private travel through their cars or whatever.”

As we talked about AEW specifically, David Starr discussed the issue with All Elite Wrestling getting independent talent to work their recent television tapings and the position that puts those up-and-coming wrestlers in.

“AEW is giving indie guys who are out of work money. Again, I don’t like this situation. I don’t like them running shows. The issue that I have with them running shows and using indie talent, as much as it’s good they’re getting the money, it’s bad they’re putting them in a position where they don’t really have a choice,” Starr said. “Let’s just say they hit up John Smith who’s an indie wrestler from South Carolina to wrestle on AEW. Now John Smith, maybe he was on the radar, maybe he wasn’t, doesn’t matter. If he doesn’t feel comfortable and he says no because he doesn’t feel comfortable, when they get on the other side of this crisis are they gonna give him that same opportunity? Probably not. So now John Smith from South Carolina is in a position where he can’t really say no. One, he needs the money. Two, it’d be great for his brand to be seen on that platform. And three, if he says no he might not get the opportunity again. So it’s a bad situation to put people in.”

As David Starr continued, he talked about the conversations he’s had with AEW Founder, President, and CEO Tony Khan and people that work for Impact Wrestling.

“I do have a relationship with Tony that we communicate, not regularly but here and there in which I’m fairly certain he trusts my opinion because he knows that I can’t get a job with him. So it’s one of those things, that’s something that helps, the fact that I know I can be honest with him,” Starr said. “Having spoken with Tony directly and then people around Tony and people that work for Tony, and speaking to people that work for Impact [Wrestling], it seems like they’re just doing it much better than WWE is doing it. They’re taking care of the wrestlers. I think that they have their interest more at heart, even though not entirely because they’re still running shows.”

The ‘shining example’ of New Japan Pro Wrestling

While he did give AEW and Impact Wrestling credit for how much better they’ve been than WWE, it was in stark contrast to Ring of Honor and New Japan Pro Wrestling who haven’t been having shows at all due to the danger of COVID-19.

“As opposed to New Japan and Ring of Honor, which are the only corporate wrestling companies doing it the right way entirely,” he said before discussing the differences in NJPW compared to American promotions. “Based on the people that live there that I’ve spoken to, the English-speaking people that have moved to Japan that I’ve spoken to or have lived there for a period of time or have worked with them or whatever, it just seems that there is a different mindset when it comes to wrestlers. It’s just more respectful. It is just more people over profit than it is profit over people, and it’s not like they’re not a massive corporation that’s not interested in making money, but they just happen to have a better idea of where the line has been drawn.”

We also talked specifically about not only the actions of NJPW as a company, but the speech that NJPW legend Hiroshi Tanahashi gave when he emphasized to the Japanese government that professional wrestling should be “the last sport to return to full activity.” Tanahashi went on to say he wants “people to know that when professional wrestling is back, then and only then it means truly that Japanese entertainment has properly recovered.”

In response to the actions by NJPW and the words of Hiroshi Tanahashi, David Starr talked about the important role American wrestling companies could also be playing as we eventually recover from this global pandemic.

“That’s the thing. Wrestling can be an important thing. It could be that symbol of we’re back to normal. It could be that thing. Wrestling is, as much as it’s niche, it’s also very culturally relevant to the point where that could be a splash of a story. I mean think about the significance that it had that WWE was the first major sporting event after 9/11. That was a big deal,” Starr said. “Wrestling proved to be important there, and wrestling could prove to be important now if we allow it to be. New Japan is just the shining example of how it should be.”

Looking forward to a post-pandemic industry

While things will be undeniably different for some time, there is a light at the end of the tunnel and things will eventually return to something resembling normalcy. As our conversation wrapped up, David Starr talked about the changes he hopes come to the industry on the other side of the current global pandemic.

“From a corporate wrestling standpoint, I hope this is just the kick in the ass for people to organize. Once people are done being sad, which they have the absolute right to be sad and distraught and down about this, and I don’t wanna invalidate those feelings or that sentiment, but once they’re done being sad, even if they’re not angry, I hope this is just a kick in the ass to organize for their own safety to give themselves a seat at the table and recognize the power that labor has,”  Starr said.

“From an independent wrestling standpoint, I hope on the other side of this that wrestlers stand firm in their fees and their wages,” Starr continued. “The biggest thing on the other side of this, and this doesn’t just apply to wrestling but obviously I’m focused on wrestling when it comes to working, but I hope that workers recognize that we have the power. We have the leverage. We always do. That’s what I want them to realize, and we always have had it. That’s what I hope happens on the other side of this.”

“I just want people to wake up,” were some of the last words by David Starr when we spoke, and they bristled with both hope and exasperation. Things are difficult right now, and society as a whole is going through some truly unprecedented struggles. However, we will get to the other side of this eventually, and the question still remains what version of normal we’ll allow to exist when we get there.